–Photo by Kim Wescott
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Oh, you live in the Central Valley? Now that’s
“GOD’S COUNTRY!”
That same descriptive term can be heard throughout one’s life for many other locales in the U.S. For some it might be Idaho or Utah, or the various “Bible Belts” salted throughout the Midwest or Southern regions of our nation. Conversely, the same term likely doesn’t come to mind when the names “San Francisco” or “South Beach” are uttered.
But what exactly, in these times and in this “global village,” does “God’s country” really mean? Perhaps the term has always had some positive connotation implied; sort of like “Mom, Apple Pie and the Stars and Stripes.” For others it is appropriated as an imaginative line-in-the-sand for fundamental values that are concentrated in one region and not in others.
Could it be said that the term “God’s country” can be regarded in two divergent ways: one as self-serving (“Our town’s been anointed by the hand of God, amen!”); or as self-defeating (“All towns, states, nations, planets, solar systems, universes and the cosmos itself ARE ‘God’s country’ by definition.) Each person of faith, any believer, must yield to the latter reality to be intellectually honest. But many folks use the term honestly in very positive ways intended to reflect positive values that their local communities hold dear and demonstrate consistently.
The United States of America can be viewed from a very clear perspective as “God’s country” as so much of its founding and development, from the pilgrims of Mayflower seeking refuge from religious intolerance in Europe, to the systematic planting of missions in California by St. Junipero Serra and such was “inspired” by religious commissions. The Bill of Rights is unequivocal in its support of the practice of religion (or not) by personal choice. In both theory and practice each American town or city provides a safe harbor for all faiths and those who hold them dear.
But we live in a cultural climate in the 21st century that would be as foreign to the founding fathers as would quantum physics seem to a first grader struggling with addition and subtraction. So, within the framework of our politically crafted constitutional freedoms regarding the practice of faiths and in these times of trial, terror and “tolerance,” what does it mean to say that our South Valley town is “God’s country?” And does making that statement require something more on the part of believers here in our communities?
THE MYSTERY OF FAITH BEGINS … An open discussion with Monsignor Ray Dreiling, Harry Wood, David Miller, Darrin Cantrell, Michael Sheltzer and Ralph Jordan.
VPI:
Please begin by stating your name, title, religious congregation or affiliation, when and how you first became aware of your “special calling” and who has been the most influential person in your life (here on Earth, besides your parents) and why?
David Miller:
My title is the Right Reverend Monsignor Your Holiness. (Laughter)
Actually I enjoy just being called Dave. A lot of people call me Pastor Dave. Technically, I am what is called the Lead Pastor or the Vision Pastor at Gateway Church. We used to be a part of the American Baptist Church Convention, and we have taken steps to get out of that. We’ll be non-denominational in about nine months. There have been some radical changes in the denomination that the church voted on 99 percent. The vote against it, I think the poor fellow misunderstood what the “yes” meant. I love Baptists. I married one. They are wonderful people but I’ve never been one. I now see it as an unusual blessing … I made the decision to go into the ministry in junior high, which shocked people. I sent in an application into the seminary that was part of our denomination at the time, and they said, “Finish junior high, finish high school, finish college …” (laughter). I still have that letter. I didn’t always walk with God as I should have. Obviously I went through some challenging times over the years but that kept me on track.
The most influential person in my life was a mentor I had when I got out of the seminary and went down to Long Beach. A man by the name of Dr. Peak. He stayed in the church for twenty-eight years after establishing it. That can either be Hell or Heaven. He sat me down and said, “David, I’d like to adopt you as my son.” It was an amazing journey of two very different people. An ex-cop who was very rough and tough and a young guy with a lot of creative ideas. I quote him all the time. He would say things very stupid like, “A sign of a great church is fresh paint and lots of babies.” I’d think, “Okay?” Now I realize what he meant. Facilities need to look great and you have a lot of babies that means you have a lot of young couples. He said a lot of things I find myself saying now. I greatly appreciated the man. He’s passed on and is with the Lord now.
Darrin Cantrell:
I am one of the four teaching pastors at Crossroads Community Church. We are not officially tied to a denomination. Our teaching style is very much Evangelical. It would be open-Evangelical in that we aren’t “fruit inspectors.” We have very wide doors. We welcome everyone and anyone regardless of faith, belief system, where they are in life. We do that because we feel that was the way Jesus taught. He taught the same message over and over again. He was always excited about seeing what type of new people would come to listen. My calling was in the Visalia Country Country Club buffet line. My pastor at the time, Harry Wood, suggested that I work for God. I had moved here to be in radio. I had just signed on for another year with the radio station, just bought a new car and a new house. He just floored me. I laughed and he laughed. Then he said, “No, I’m serious.” I went to Nazarene College out of high school so I always thought it may be possible that the ministry would be something down the line but after working in radio for a number of years, I never thought that was going to happen. My wife and I had gone through some challenges, I had gone through some personal challenges, and it was God that got me through a lot of those things. That was how I was called. I spent many hours in prayer over that and decided to jump in with both feet … get out of the boat and [I] have ended up spending a number of years in the ministry. The most influential person in my life … my father-in-law is probably that person. But I consider him my second father, Harry. You know, when I make decisions in ministry, I always think, “How would Harry Wood have done this?” I know when he made decisions he always said, “How would Jesus have done this?” He taught me so much, and I am greatly indebted to him. He’s one of the finest men this city has ever known.
Michael Sheltzer:
I am affiliated with Congregation B’ nai David, one of now two Jewish Congregations in Visalia. We are affiliated with the reform movement, which is on the liberal wing of the Jewish spectrum. I am currently president of the congregation. We don’t have any professional clergy in our congregation. That’s largely an issue of finances. We are a small community, and it’s very expensive to hire professional clergy. The Congregation has been in existence for over 50 years, and we’ve taken it upon ourselves to be a do-it-yourself shop. I am one of several lay leaders in the community. My own background really led me into this. I come from a family where religion was taken for granted. I grew up in a reformed family, my nuclear family. My extended family were Orthodox Jews and very conservative. We were the black sheep but tremendously exposed to the richness of the tradition as well. I was exposed to the whole spectrum, which actually was quite formative in determining who I ultimately turned out to be.
I have been arguing since I knew how to speak. My mother used to tell me, “You should really be a lawyer.” I’d say, “I don’t want to be a lawyer. I don’t like lawyers.” (Laughter) We would argue about theological things and philosophical things. When I went to undergraduate school I studied philosophy. I expressly didn’t study theology. I had enough of theology. As I studied more and more philosophy in my later years of school, I bumped into a Hasidic Rabbi who was on our campus. He was starting up an organization. I was intrigued by it. I took it on as a challenge and got turned on by the spiritual aspect of it all. I studied with him for about a year and it was around the same time I met my wife. There was this pulling because she was not, at that point in time, interested in any of this stuff. She was also Jewish but not especially involved. I think what happened, after my marriage and the birth of my first child, it really dawned on me that he had to be something. I knew he would be Jewish; there was no question about that.
The weight of the responsibility of bringing a child into the world and the responsibility of making sure he had a Jewish education was first and foremost with me. The first challenge was trying to determine where we could teach the Jewish faith. At that time, we weren’t affiliated with one place so there were all these questions I had. I was faced with learning on my own, especially when it came to faith issues such as circumcision with my children. I had to investigate and reach answers on my own. That was one of my first ventures into Pastoral care. When my oldest son was five, we put him in school and joined a congregation. The first thing that happened is we became teachers. This pushed me a little further but then one of the lay leaders was going to be leaving. He told me I really ought to think about becoming a leader. I went through a very intensive program called Pararabbenics, which basically trains lay people to officiate in life cycle events.
The greatest influence in my life really is my parents, even though you said to not say your parents. If I can’t choose them, the most influential person in my life is my wife. In many respects the practical realities of figuring out how to negotiate life together is the greatest teaching that there is.
Darrin Cantrell:
Thanks for making us all look bad!
(Laughter)
Ralph Jordan:
My title in my church is Elder. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, sometimes referred to as the “LDS” church or the “Mormon” church. I was baptized in the church when I was 8 years old primarily because my parents were members of the Church. I became an elder when I was 19 years old, and that was after a period of personal introspection and, -some study … I can’t say it was an exhaustive religious study. I did read scripture and other religious works and engaged in substantial personal prayer. Based upon a 19-year-old’s life experience and realizing that I needed some direction, development and constant nourishment in a spiritual way in my life, so I made a commitment then to God to become a disciple of Jesus Christ.
I believe, as has been observed by all here, that our families are the greatest blessing in our lives and they are the important things in our lives. Aside from those people, I had a football coach by the name of Elmer Scritchfield when I was 15 years old. He said to me, “You know what Ralph? You are the biggest disappointment of my whole season.” He was a wise coach because I think he felt I had some potential that I was not realizing. From that time on, I turned it up a notch. I began to be more diligent, more intense, more committed to whatever endeavor I undertook. I thank Elmer Scritchfield because I was obviously at a very impressionable age, and he set me on a good course by calling my attention to that fact.
Monsignor Ray Dreiling:
I’m a Roman Catholic Priest with a title of Monsignor. I’ve been a Pastor at St. Mary’s Church for almost 3 years. It was an ongoing process for me. I started out in a very faithful Catholic family. Parents who were very much practicing in the faith. As a result our family was rooted in prayer and worship on a regular basis. Which then started to hit home with me inside my heart. When I was a very young teenager at the age of 14, my mother and I had gone to special services on Good Friday -- that’s why Good Friday is such an important moment in my life. It was the tradition in our Parish Church in Fresno that we would spend three hours with the Lord – his agony on the cross. At the end of those three hours in church, my mother looked at me, I had never mentioned to her I was interested in ministry and as all mothers would say they have these intuitions. She looked down at me and said, “So you still want to be a priest.” I said to myself, “How did she know?” I told her, “Yes, I’ve been thinking about it.” That night my father came home from work and my mother said to my father over his cup of coffee, “Ray has something to tell you.” My father instinctively said, “What did he do now?” I told him and the next thing I knew I was visiting with our local Pastor and one thing lead to another. I found myself in the high school division of our seminary system. I went 12 years leading up to Ordination in 1975. It was an inner calling.
It’s very difficult to name my most influential person. I’m a firm believer that our lives are somewhat like a stained glass window and each person who comes into our lives contributes to the beauty of that window. To pick out one person, other than my parents would be very, very difficult. I would say without trying to beat around the bush, that some of my professors in my seminary, who were really my teachers, were influentials because they are now leaders in the church. One is the Most Reverend George Niederauer, who is now the Archbishop of San Francisco. Strangely enough it wasn’t because of his outstanding holiness, he is a very holy man, it was his humor. He is a man of extremely wonderful humor. Just a down to earth kind of guy and very influential to me.
Harry Wood:
I wanted to be a Doctor, but I received a “D” in embryology and that’s when God called me into ministry. That’s not the whole story. My dad was a minister and I took the faith very seriously. Then I went to college and I did want to be a doctor, but I didn’t have the grades to get into medical school. I started revisiting the idea of following in my dad’s footsteps. I was a counselor in a youth camp through college in the summers and thought more and more that’s what I should do. Now, I’m retired after having been a Pastor for 40 years. I’m grateful for my calling and the chances I’ve had as a Pastor.
It’s hard to narrow down the most influential person in my life. Bill Landis was one. He was a United Methodist Pastor and the Campus Minister at Georgia Tech for 25 years. He was a person I always looked up to. He was articulate, kind and took me under his wing. I thought when I grew up I’d like to be like Bill Landis.
VPI:
In what ways has new technology, new music, new cultural and social issues affected your specific congregation? If you had a choice to revert back to the “old ways” would you?
David Miller:
That’s a loaded question for my church!
Darrin Cantrell:
Can I answer that for Dave?
(Laughter)
David Miller:
It’s a good one for me to answer. I’m a new Pastor of almost two years since I was called to be the lead Pastor with the team here. The leadership certainly wanted the Church to make some changes so we could incorporate the new technology, new music and just understand the relevant messages. I came out of a church that was a larger church. It had a few thousand people, and all we had were four services on a weekend with just contemporary music. Coming here it was a different approach. When I arrived, it had two styles; it had a contemporary service and what was called “traditional.” Interestingly enough, it’s surprising to me how many young people still enjoy the orchestra. We have someone with an earring and a young kid playing the trombone, so there’s an interesting pull. I believe the arts are stronger in this city than perhaps many areas. That’s been a surprise to me coming from Los Angeles. There was a great need to develop new music. Many people came to our church over the years because it was the last church that didn’t have it. That’s not always the best reason to go to a church. It meant a little bit of a transition but they’ve handled it very, very well. Now we have a very upbeat classic service. It’s interesting how many people when they come to church say, “Whoa, that’s church?” They enjoy the 9 o’clock service, which is the more traditional service, and we have the 10:30, which is called the Praise Band. This has pretty much permeated most Evangelical-Christianity churches. There’s nothing new about that for the past 15 years. Most are using contemporary music. Lyrics make the music Christian not the music itself. We have started a Thursday night service, and most of our growth is with the newer services, but again, it’s surprising how many people come to that first service as well. When you talk about new technology … when I first came to the Church the average age was probably in the 60’s. The leadership said, “We want you to reach younger families.” I explained to them, “You understand what that’s going to mean, don’t you?” It meant some changes. I came with three prerequisites: change your name, get rid of the pews and put in some nice chairs and get 50 acres to prove that you really care about reaching more people, then I’ll be glad to be your Pastor. They said, “Yes.”
There are a lot of different churches. God uses different churches to reach different people and that’s a good thing. The thing I think most churches are doing today is working on different venues. Churches may have a jazz service, more of a country service, a coffee service, non-music service, and they use videos. Videos are really where it’s at. You can use the video screens in very effective ways. We use the video screens and will be adding more. Technology has affected all of us. It was such a challenge for people when we changed from using a microphone to the headset. That was actually a shock for some people.
To revert back to the “good ole ways,” I think there were many wonderful things about our church. However, the most important thing about our church is to forget what lies behind and press on to what lies ahead. When you have a church that has been around for 130-some years, there’s a real tendency for people to get involved in nostalgia. My whole emphasis is all about vision, it’s all about the future. What are we going to do to reach this generation? It was wonderful reaching our past generations so everything is about working on kids, youth and trying to work with the missing generation of the 20-something’s. In that process, you can’t alienate people. A turn-around church is a lot more of a challenge than I thought. It’s a wonderful community, and we have such a great spirit, and everyone’s on board ready to go forward. It’s like a rebirth and new excitement, and that’s the joy to see happening in this transition.
Darrin Cantrell:
First of all, I would have to say old ways are not necessarily bad ways. In the contemporary church context today the fast growing, mega churches, if you read between the lines, they are saying there is no place for old ways anymore. As Dave said, I believe it’s very valuable to preserve those things that different generations appreciate. At Crossroads we’ve been able to intermingle the two. That’s why we have people in their eighties coming and people in their teens coming, which is really neat to see. When you read the Old and New Testament, you see culture changing right before your eyes. In the 21st century, culture is obviously still changing, and to reach new people you have to constantly be finding ways to be relevant to those people. Two of our culture points for the church are innovative and relevant. How can we be innovative and relevant to reach a community where religiosity is huge? There are more than 200 churches in this region that represent every spectrum of faith. At least 50,000, probably closer to 75,000 people in this region don’t go to church. My goal is to pack Heaven. Whatever we can do to encourage people to get in our doors just to show up, I’m thrilled. The great thing is there’s a number of pastors in town, and we don’t care where they go just as long as they’re going somewhere where they can learn. Fortunately, there’s a real spirit of cooperation with a lot of churches in our community. Some of our singers were asked to go over to the Mormon Church this Christmas season to sing. That’s just a great opportunity. God said just love me and just love others and the rest will work. We had a hymn two weeks ago, and I think we had more positive comments about that hymn. But then again, I also preach in jeans that have holes in them. It’s just different. There’re a lot of different places people can go, and that’s a good thing.
Michael Sheltzer:
The question about new technology, I guess the first question that comes into my mind is, “What technology?” (Laughter) Then it occurs to me, over the millennia since Judaism has been around, it’s been constantly fine-tuned and sometimes completely re-tooled after the destruction of the second temple where you couldn’t sacrifice anymore. The entire mode of worship had to change. You didn’t have a place anymore and religion had to become portable. Adapting to the place and the time has always been an issue. Until very recently, historically, the vast majority of Jews lived in exile. The difference between more fundamentalist’s branches of the tradition and more liberal branches of the tradition is not the fact of change because they all change. The debate centers on how quickly to change and what particular changes to make. In terms of new technology, it helps to understand that if you go to a traditional Synagogue, they don’t use microphones, let alone video screens and splashy electrified instruments. In fact, there are many congregations that don’t use instrumentation at all in worship. Technology itself is a wonderful thing. I’m a techno-geek. Computers have revolutionized the exchange of information not only among congregants. When I began my journey along this path, the greatest challenge that I had was finding a teacher. What the internet has done has revolutionized the learning experience. I can tap into unbelievable resources. The ability to get good information is a good thing. New music has really invigorated the movement. A lot of our kids go to camp and get music from camp. They like to try and duplicate that camp experience at home, and a lot of that has to do with music and songs. We do participate in a student rabbi program from L.A., and one of the big features is that the students bring a guitar and play some songs to get the kids familiar with it. The message is what makes it good religious music. New cultural and social issues are very important. In my view, again coming from a liberal branch of the movement, changes in social acceptability of different lifestyles in our particular movement have been very welcoming of all types of folks with different lifestyles. With the common theme that they’re Jewish, with their particular family unit looks like is not necessarily critical. It’s lead to inclusiveness to a sense of not having to judge somebody and that’s been very good. I’m not sure we can go back and I’m not too sure the ‘good ol’ days’ are necessarily all that good. At least not from where I sit. I don’t think going back really has that much to it.
Ralph Jordan:
In the Mormon Church we have the same challenges as all of the other churches have and that is to meet the needs of everyone who comes to the church. We try and participate in meeting the needs of those who are not part of the church as I know all other churches do as well. Our music is traditional music on Sunday. We have piano and organ in the chapel. We may have a violin or other reverential music on Sundays. That’s not necessarily the same as we have on the other days of the week. The Youth Program will have its own music. We have monthly dances with pre-recorded DJ’s, things that the high school students like. We, like the schools, have to police those for mosh pits and inappropriate bumping, etc. I won’t go into any details. (Laughter) We encourage people to develop cultural arts. You have performances, you have script writing. In fact, in September our youth got together for what they called, “Play in a Day,” in which they scripted their own plays and their own music. It’s always interesting to see what they come up with. Culturally, we try to meet the needs of the community in several different ways. We have “wards” or “branches” which are terms for a congregation. Most wards are composed of families, single adults and children all attending church together. We also have in Visalia a young adult branch, which is exclusively for singles that are out of high school between the age of 18 to approximately 30. This seems to meet the particular needs of that aspect of the population. There is a Hispanic unit as well, where Spanish is spoken in the majority of the meetings. Technology has been a tremendous part of the church. As you know, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is world wide and it is a centralized church. In other words, it has a headquarters. The ability to communicate and maintain records, all of that has become computerized of course. We have satellite connections in literally thousands of buildings around the world so that twice a year we have a general conference that emanates from Salt Lake City, with several thousand satellite hook ups transmitting that meeting to local congregations. That is quite a technological accomplishment, especially when you think about it in the context of a church. One of the challenges we have as a church is the rate of growth we experience. So record keeping is a mind-boggling challenge. With over thirteen million members as they continue to multiply, I think the hard drive just gets bigger and bigger. With respect to technology, our church is very interested in genealogy and ancestor research. We have opened websites for “Family Search”. It’s a website where anyone can go in and for free you can find a substantial amount of family history information. They are continually upgrading that database. I think all of those things touch on the response to this question about music, culture and technology. You ask if we would want to go back to the old ways. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is actually a restored church of Jesus Christ. For us to go back to the old ways we’d have to go back to the meridian and I don’t think we would get many votes to do that.
Monsignor Ray Dreiling:
Like anything, technology and new approaches the proclamation of the gospel are always welcomed in ministry. I think we have to be open to the possibility that these new technologies can confer to the Gospel message. As long as technology doesn’t become gimmicks that water down the gospel message, of course they have an impact. I just remember the old days when there were no microphones and no public address systems. The Preacher had to yell. The consequence was it always sounded like he was angry because he was yelling all the time. Now, with modern techniques of microphones and public address systems, we can use nuances of voice and sound to help the gospel message. All this can help with the proclamation of the Gospel. I’m a firm believer in using those techniques as long as they don’t become a barrier. The one thing we don’t want to do is to allow new techniques and new technologies to cloud the message. New techniques of music can help the worship only if it proclaims the gospel message. New music, modern music and modern techniques by all means. If I had a chance to revert back to the old ways, I would not do it. There are certain treasures of tradition that are sacred to us. If we want to call them old ways, then of course. They’ll be with us forever. To go back to the “good ole days”, I wonder if there was such a thing.
Harry Wood:
Music is the big thing in my church and my ministry. When it started it was an organ and a hymnal. Now during the last 15 years of my ministry there was no hymnal and very little organ. The Gregorian Chants gave way to the music of Bach and organ music in the 1500 – 1600’s. I know of no growing Evangelical Protestant church in California that does not have contemporary music. If you want to communicate the gospel, the vehicle with which you do that is contemporary music. Do I yearn for the good old days? I go to organ concerts –Palace of Fine Art in San Francisco – you go at 4:00 on a Saturday and they only have an organ in there. I am the only guy in Borders looking for an organ CD. I like it, but if you want to communicate the gospel, you go with the flow.
VPI:
Does your religion acknowledge that those of other faiths are equal in Gods’ eyes? Why or why not?
David Miller:
First of all, I’d like to use the term “belief system”. Everyone has a belief system and I even recoil at separation of church and state because then the secular belief system gets to win over the church system and so we lose because we’re defined out of the game. Everybody has a belief system with morals so whatever yours is we ought to acknowledge that. My faith is one of the relationship and it’s not highly organizational. People often tell me, “I’m not into organized religion.” I’ll reply back to them, “Come on over to Gateway. We’re real unorganized.” When you talk about other faiths, no one who is a thinking person would ever say that all faiths are equal. If you believe in the law of non-contradiction you cannot say that some people who are very sincere, who get in a plane, slit an airline stewardesses throat and fly it into a building and kill all of those people “for God,” that is equal with some other faith. There’s a good majority of people in an extreme Muslim group who would like to kill everyone who is Jewish and Christian. Let’s get down to even other faiths. One of the things that people often knock about Christianity is it’s said Christian’s are so narrow-minded they can look through a straw with both eyes. I tell people, “No, we’re not fundamentalists because they’ve taken away all the fun. They have too much damn and not enough mental.” I’m not a fundamentalist and maybe you have heard that. The best way to answer this is with a story that impacted me when I was younger. Billy Graham, was asked a question by Johnny Carson. The question was, “Billy, would you say that Jesus is the only way to get into Heaven?” I think Billy Graham handled that really well. He said, “You know Johnny, I would never say that. But Jesus said it. “And I’m the way of the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by me.” You may have problems with me on this but really the issue is what Jesus said. I think the other side of it is people don’t understand that the offer of whosoever will come is there, and if you seek me with all of your heart, you will find me. The law of non-contradiction creates this problem. I try to tell our people, one of the wonderful things about being in America is you have the right to believe whatever you want as long as you don’t hurt someone. I think that’s the greatest thing in our country. What happens is we take a step from there and we cross over the line of being illogical. We get so open minded our brain falls out. We now say, “Whatever you believe is right.” Not just you have the right to believe whatever you want, but whatever you believe is correct. We have to come back and say, “How can that be true?” In America, however, we allow the greatest freedom, which gives everyone equal footing.
Darrin Cantrell:
Jesus is known most for two things: the great commission and the great commandment. The great commission said go out and make disciples. The great commandment, love God, love others. There was no litmus test there. He didn’t say love God and love other people who are white, who are sober or who believe the same thing you do. He said, “Love God and love others.” We are very intentional about loving everyone and anyone regardless of what they did an hour before they got to church or 15 years before they got to church. It’s not our job to determine whether or not they are worthy of our love or their equality in God’s eyes. That’s not for us to judge. We just say, “Hey, we love ya, and we’re glad you’re here. How can we serve you?”
Michael Sheltzer:
Basically Judaism is primarily action based. Jews do not corner the market on God's love. Religion itself doesn’t really determine what the faith should necessarily look like. There is precedent in the idea that if a person follows some basic rules of civilized conduct, they too have a share in the world to come. There’s precedent back to the ancient Rabbis that supports this notion. There were basic laws of civilized conduct. If you followed those rules, you too could have a place in Heaven. Individuals have different roles, and the path that is carved out in the Hebrew Bible is a particular role for Jewish people. If they choose to accept it, you do it. It’s not such an exclusiveness in terms of who gets their share.
Ralph Jordan:
We believe that God is our eternal Father and his Son is Jesus Christ. We also believe Paul’s statement that we are the offspring of God. In other words, every man, woman and child on this Earth is a child of God. There are no boundaries for the love that one should have for their brothers and sisters here on Earth. There may be boundaries of states and nations or of membership or qualification but there are no boundaries in terms of the love that we ought to have for one another. Hopefully, every child of God can find a way to express that love, express respect and reflect that relationship somehow. One of the saddest things in life is when there are barriers built where one cannot receive love or give love.
Monsignor Ray Dreiling:
Absolutely. All of our teaching from the Roman Catholic tradition is that every human being no matter what their faith or ethnic background is created in the image and likeness of God and demands our respect and care. Whether one person is of one faith or another, of course our goal is to proclaim the Gospel and bring people to Christ. Our fundamental foundation is every person is created in the image and likeness of God.
Harry Wood:
The verse in the New Testament says, “always be prepared to give an answer to anyone who asks you to give a reason for the hope that is within you but do this with gentleness and respect.” There is so much anti-Muslim feeling in this country because of 9/11. The Klu Klux Clan in my lifetime in Georgia killed black people in the name of Christianity. All of us have our dark areas, things that we’re not proud of and those times when Christians have been punitive towards non-Christians is something I’m embarrassed and ashamed of. We share the Gospel but we need to do it with gentleness and respect.
VPI:
If you had the power and the capacity to change one thing for the better within our community, what would that be?
David Miller:
A four-year quality college so we don’t experience the brain drain from all of our fine seniors who get out of high school and never return.
Darrin Cantrell:
In this context especially and given what we do, either vocationally or avocationally, it would be that the Church, capital “C,” the Catholic church, that the Jewish congregation, that the Mormon Church, would collectively work together to be the type of church that Jesus intended for Christ’s followers to be. To feed the hungry. To cloth poor. To take an active role in helping. Michael said that Judaism is primarily an action-based religion, and he is right. Judaism doesn’t hold the corner on that market. I believe that if we are following the tenets of God and of Jesus Christ, we need to be an action-based group. “What are you doing for God today?” Not just, “What are you enjoying at your Country Club buffet.”
Michael Sheltzer:
This is such a good question and good answers. I thought about this. I’m not from here. I grew up back East. I grew up in a metropolitan area where there was tremendous diversity of ideas. Sometimes Visalia feels like a narrow-minded, black and white kind of place that doesn’t really acknowledge and embrace the shades of gray. If I had a magic wand, I’d like to see less of a polarization between drawing a line in the sand that this is good and this is bad, this is right and this is wrong. It is very difficult to build consensus. It is very difficult to try and solve common problems if one accentuates the differences. There is a lot of common ground that can be met. If you’re blindly following the status quo, that rarely leads to peace.
Ralph Jordan:
I like Visalia. I was born here … a long time ago. (Laughter) The concern that I have is our effectiveness in meeting the challenges that tend to break down communities. People need to know that they belong. The more they feel that they belong and that they’re part of this community, the more likely it is that they’re going to take ownership and contribute to its success.
Monsignor Ray Dreiling:
I think it goes back to the previous question. I think we live in a society where the individual person is not respected. The right and the sense of respect for human life is fundamental, which leads to the question of family. If there is that sense of unity and completeness within the family, I think our community would be absolutely transformed. The fragmentation of the family, the breakdown of the unit of the family is the most serious crisis we have to face in our society and our community today. It has it’s off-shoot of violence and gang warfare so to answer that question for me, I think one thing I would change is the fundamental respect that every human person deserves, which then is seen in the family unit. We believe that the family is the cell of the Church and the cell of the community. If the family doesn’t embrace the community then it disintegrates.
Harry Wood:
There is no collaboration between us. You understand that. Strengthening families would be number one for me. Economic empowerment is one piece of that. Education in the family is also important. Adequate housing - I’m involved with Habitat for Humanity. It’s a spiritual base that we’re looking for families. One of the most poignant things that happen to me in the last year or so of my ministry … occasionally I would ask people in the services at Methodist Church to write down on a card something they wanted for a sermon. I got a card from a child who wrote, “Would you tell us how families can have mothers and fathers who don’t yell at each other all the time.” That just says it. I would want to strengthen families.
VPI:
If you could no longer participate in your church/synagogue, etc. what would you most likely be doing instead?
David Miller:
I can’t even imagine not being a Pastor. I love it so much. Truly when I try to think of that, there’s nothing that falls my way. I would probably get on my motorcycle and ride around. I’d be a biker/Pastor. That would be what I would do.
Darrin Cantrell:
We have six full-time teachers’ as staff. All of us are bi-vocational. We have other jobs. I never want to have a church office. Ours is Tazzaria down on Main Street. It is important for us to be bi-vocational. If I weren’t pastoring, I go to my radio show in the morning. I love it. Our Worship Pastor is a professor at Fresno Pacific University. One of my other Pastors is a personal trainer. There are just a lot of things that we enjoy doing, and it gives us an opportunity to be in another element.
Michael Sheltzer:
I’d be doing exactly what I’m doing. I would still be a lawyer. I love teaching so I would teach also.
Ralph Jordan:
I’m not sure if I should interpret this question as they kicked me out of the church or … (laughter). We have eight congregations in Visalia, but if somehow there were no church here, I would worship in my home with my family, following the same doctrine and program we have now.
Monsignor Ray Dreiling:
I hadn’t thought about not participating in church. It’s really not part of my thoughts. I can’t see myself divorced from the church. I would probably be involved in some form of the helping profession. When we finally discovered that I wanted to consider the ministry mother said, “Well, I thought when you were growing up, you would be one of two things. You would be an actor or you would be a priest.” I would have gone into broadcasting I think. I would have gone behind the camera.
I think it’s important that for most ministers/priests, it’s in our blood. We just can’t get away from it. It’s who we are, not what we are.
Harry Wood:
Tough question because my life is so wound up with the church. More solitude perhaps. I run three days a week and that’s a spiritual thing for me so more of that. Maybe having more folks in for dinner from all walks of life.
VPI:
Do you have a special prayer, teaching, book, scripture that you would like to share with our readers?
David Miller:
It would be that God really does so love the world that he sent his one and only, (the Greek means monogamace), Son that whoever believes in Him would not perish and have eternal life. I would want people to know that God loves them. He demonstrated that through his Son, who died on the cross to take care of our sins. It’s free to believe and it transforms your life.
Darrin Cantrell:
My favorite verse in the Bible is Hebrews 11:1. It says, “Faith is believing in things you can’t see.” I apply that to my own personal life and how we started this church two years ago. We’re always amazed at what God continues to do at our church. There’s also a translation of the Bible from an author named Rob Henry. It’s called The Word on the Street Bible. It translates the Bible into an incredibly contemporary context. It is a fun read for people who have the big, huge King James Bible. It just opens new doors for people to get into God.
Michael Sheltzer:
What I want to share is a teaching, it’s sort of a world view. It’s called Tikkun Olam. It is a concept of repairing the world. It’s a classical Jewish notion that we are in a relationship with God that requires action on both sides. It’s a contract. The theory goes that God is infinite. In the creative process God existed before creation. In order for there to be metaphorically room for the big creation, it required that God contract God’s self. The infinite puts limitations in order for the creative process to go forward. Because the ancient Rabbis wrestled with the idea -- of if God filled all that there was, how was there room for anything else? The answer was that God contracted God’s self. That God intentionally limited God’s self, at least momentarily to make room for creation. Then the light shone forth and there were vessels that were created to capture the light. As the light filled the vessels, something broke. It was like breaking eggs. It shattered. The idea of Tikkum Olam and repairing the World is partnering with God. Time and time again in the Bible, humans are called to partner with God. God could wave a magic wand and make that happen but that’s not the way God operates in this theory. God requires human beings do something. From the very beginning, people have been required to do stuff. I believe that it is our mission on Earth to co-partner with God in repairing the world. Cosmically, to bring a sense of wholeness back to things.
Ralph Jordan:
I appreciate these other things that have been said, and clearly as someone whose faith teaches discipleship of Jesus Christ and honoring our Father in Heaven, I think the more we can learn about our Father in Heaven the better off we are. The more we know Him the more we can appreciate him and be grateful for what He’s given us. That makes us better people. We can know Him through the Bible. We can know him through prayer and other scripture. In our faith we believe in the Book of Mormon that it is another testament of Jesus Christ. It helps us come to know Jesus as well as our Father in Heaven. In essence, my recommendation is to develop our spiritual lives. We develop our physical lives, our social lives, our intellectual lives and our emotional lives. We work on those but we neglect our spiritual lives. We’re not going to get it in school. We’re not going to get it at work. We have to take that responsibility on our own and seek God. Those are the ways that we do it through prayer and scripture study and by fellowshipping with other believers.
Monsignor Ray Dreiling:
Someone that I try to live by comes from II Timothy and I use the earlier translation of the New American Bible because it says it more succinctly than the newer translation. II Timothy where Paul is encouraging Timothy not to become discouraged because he’s the head of a church and the head of a community. He’s young and Paul is encouraging him to please don’t become discouraged because you’re young. In it Paul says, “The Spirit that has been given to us is no cowardly spirit, rather one that makes us strong, loving and wise.” I believe if we could search for that spirit within us, that helps us to be strong and not become discouraged - loving, outgoing, reaching out to others and to seek wisdom searching for the truth not just the winning of an argument.
Harry Wood:
In a book I recently read from a professor of Emery University, Gregory Burns, he is a neuro-psychiatrist so dopamine is what makes you feels good and it’s stimulated for him by people who have novel experiences and who are able to have a challenge and need it. That’s it. Having novelty in your life and having things that you want to do and to do them. My verse that has been a really big part of me, is somewhat related to that is Jeremiah 45:5, “Seek great things for thyself. Seek them not for behold I am bringing evil against all flesh. But thy life I will give thee is a prize of war whether so ever thou goist.” Which means seek good things for yourself … your life. That does not mean for me lowering your expectations so much as just being grateful for you’ve got.
VPI:
As a leader in your religious congregation, what brings you the most personal joy within all aspects of your faith life? The most heartache?
David Miller:
Just a quick explanation, I was very much successful in a career selling insurance and securities. In fact, I had it all mapped out in my seminary days that I was going to be a millionaire if things continued in this very successful office. That was going to be my job and not be dependent upon a church for my income. Until I read I Corinthians, it says, “Jesus Christ commands those who preach the Gospel to make their living by the Gospel.” It was very humbling for me to set that aside. I wanted to share that because I think it’s important. I think bi-vocational is great but there’s a strong emphasis that the Bible does teach that you can be a person who can handle that. It’s very humbling sometimes. I went to Seminary and pursued a doctoral degree. I have a huge weakness in my own life in that I have an addiction to reading and books. I believe the problem that is happening within the church today is there is a dumbing down of the faith. In our desires to be relevant we have really dumbed down the faith. My commitment is to be as deep as I can and then take that and make it a symbol for people to understand. If you really study it and know it as you present it there’s a sense of coherence to it. I love to study. I love to prepare my own sermons. I love to dig in and put it together. The greatest joy is not that. The greatest joy is when a light goes on with someone and there’s life change. Not just people coming faith, which is so exciting. John said in III John, “I have no greater joy than this - to see my children walking in the faith.” Seeing people growing and taking the next step which leads to the greatest heartache. Nothing breaks my heart more than just to see people who should know better. I mean this from my heart. When a major Christian leader, particularly Evangelical, crashes and burns. If anybody ought to know better on how to protect themselves against temptation and live a life that’s authentic, it’s them. It opens a lot of doors for other people to look around and say, “Well, I wonder what’s going on in his life? And his life?” I think it hurts everybody else. That really brings tears to my eyes. It also breaks my heart for people who haven’t found God, who don’t have a personal relationship with God.
Darrin Cantrell:
The Evangelical Christian message is basically to take people who are in one place in life and to move them to a better place in life. You’ll find this in AA, NA and any recovery program. Like Dave said, to see people transformed, which is the word Paul used in the New Testament, to see them completely change from the inside out … to go from one place to another place and see the light …. I think that’s what gives me the most joy to actually experience that. For people to say, “Wow, Darrin didn’t change my life. The church didn’t change my life. But understanding God finally, it changed my life.” It’s not about me or Dave or Ralph or Mike, it’s about what God is doing in all of the congregations. The most heartache, I think in this community, and I may ruffle a feather or two, is hearing criticisms volleyed from church to church. We have 200 churches in this region. It just hurts me so bad to hear one Pastor criticize another Pastor. Or one church criticizing another church. Nietzsche, the world’s greatest atheist, said, “Christianity wouldn’t be so bad if it wasn’t for all the Christians.” It’s true. It’s a poor marketing plan. That’s what gives me the most heartache when we take so much time to talk about how important it is to love others and love God and over lunch we’re talking about each other. That hurts … that really hurts.
Michael Sheltzer:
I get the most joy out of teaching. I love figuring out an approach to a problem. It is also, as I’ve transitioned into more of a pastoral role, it’s really been an honor and awe inspiring to be with people at a time of either immense joy or incredible tragedy. Being there for those people at the pivotal moments of their lives is just an amazing gift. I’m very touched by it. In my professional life, I deal with people in crisis constantly. It’s a different kind of thing though when you’re dealing with these other kinds of issues. In a very small community like the Jewish community here in Tulare County, probably the most hurtful thing is unintentional misunderstandings that causes there to be bad feelings. Being busy with other endeavors because we’re not serviced by a professional and things falling through the cracks. That’s the probably the most difficult thing in terms of managing that small group of people. Making sure that the lines of communication stay open.
Ralph Jordan:
As we shoulder the responsibilities of leadership in our faith, we are with people in every aspect of their lives. If you were to take your hand (gesturing his thumb touching all fingers), the thumb would represent your spiritual life. As your thumb touches and makes the other parts of your hand more effective, your spirituality touches and affects every other aspect of your life. Some people abandon that, and so they’re left on their own. Others use their spiritual strength to complement the other aspects of their life. As someone who is a leader in the faith, from birth to death, you’re with them every step of the way. It makes you appreciate all the good things you have in your own life, and it makes you appreciate all the goodness in others. You see them at their very best and at their very worst. That sometimes brings heartache because I think like Dave said, it could be so much better for them. You agonize as they go through their hard time and are sometimes helpless to bring them out into the light. It does break your heart.
Monsignor Ray Dreiling:
For me as a Roman Catholic Priest it’s one of the most difficult ministries that I do. That is the sacrament of reconciliation. In our tradition we have what’s called confession. It is a moment of an hour or two hours when I sit and be with the people as they express their sinfulness and their need for reconciliation between themselves and God. I can offer the ministry of the church, not my forgiveness but God’s forgiveness and the consolation that comes from the Lord Jesus and His gift of forgiveness for them. That is one of the hardest things for me to because I know my own sinfulness. I know my need for that reconciliation myself. I find my greatest joy in the reconciliation that comes with people who have recognized their sinfulness and want to return to the Lord and walk on that path. To be a minister of reconciliation is probably one of the greatest joys I have. To walk with someone in the intimacy of that moment who has been estranged from God for 25 or 30 years and to minister to them in a way to bring them back to a right relationship with God is one of the most satisfying moments of my life. Heartache, again, is going back to the destruction of family. When I see the breaking of the covenant, the breaking of the promises because of selfishness. That’s heartbreaking for me. I also know its part of life and we have to trust the Lord in that.
Harry Wood:
The good thing is seeing people grow. Seeing people really turn to the Lord and then start getting out of debt, the marriage gets back together and somebody quits drinking and quits doing dope. Just to see people grow. The flip side of that is seeing people who are rigid. Who are unyielding. Who just have barriers. The world is trying to get through to them and God is trying to get through to them. They just say, “I’m not going to change.” That breaks my heart.
Our panel of Influential Pastors were faced with one last question that they were unaware of. They were asked to provide us with the words that they would like to see on their tombstone. How would they like to be remembered? Here’s what they said:
David Miller: “He loved the Lord with all his heart and then others.”
Darrin Cantrell: “Don’t be afraid to be real.”
Michael Sheltzer: “Loving father, husband and eternal child who did not take himself too seriously.”
Ralph Jordan: “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” – Edmund Burke
Monsignor Ray Dreiling: “My goal is to service quietly not to make big waves and to do quiet work for the Lord.”
Harry Wood: “Harry was like a Christian Point Guard. The guy who passed off the ball to somebody else and enabled the team to win.”
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